Imperfect Design

[alextemplet]

What about believing in God with proof to back up the belief?

And what proof do you have? (I'm honestly asking, not being cynical).

That's going to be quite a lengthy discussion that may not be tolerated in this forum (perhaps it would be better in the off-topic?). I would be more than happy to discuss it in great detail with you through private messages or perhaps an instant messenger or e-mail. You can find all my contact info at the bottom of my posts.

For now, let me at least say that - in addition to other evidence - I have the evidence of my own eyes. If I have met someone, and spoken to him, I know that he exists, do I not?

[genovese]

Greeneye55582 has asked "why should a creator want to create perfection".
I could never imagine him wanting to do otherwise - unless he was a sadist/cynical creator wanting to watch us squirm in some kind of awful experiment.
It would also backfire on the creator for we humans would then be in a position of improving on his creation.
Although even if the creator created imperfectly - to us mere humans it would always appear to be perfect - unless like the Romans, we can also become Gods.

[alextemplet]

Greeneye55582 has asked "why should a creator want to create perfection".
I could never imagine him wanting to do otherwise - unless he was a sadist/cynical creator wanting to watch us squirm in some kind of awful experiment.

In my opinion, imperfection is the price of free will.

[charles brough]

Imperfect Design

Darwin’s theory of Evolution explains how living things adapt to changing environments over time so as to survive and procreate the species. It does not suggest that the results will turn out to be perfect. Look through any medical textbook and you will conclude that homo sapiens is far from being a perfect in design. It is these very imperfections that give strength to the theory. Intelligent design should produce perfect design, unless it has been produced by limited intelligence. The creationist theory seems to suggest that the Creator has not done his work properly – surely that cannot be so.

I am sure that many Biologists and Biochemists have ideas on how the human body could have been improved. I would like to hear some of them. As a starter, how about putting a few chloroplasts into our skin? We could eat and sunbath at the same time. We might in addition become less aggressive by being less competitive over food.

Genetic tinkering with our makeup is as dangerous an undertaking as I can imagine! Would we change us into a unisex species like was the fad of the 1990s? E.O.Wilson wanted to improve our altruism without even knowing what it is. Pity us if people start to re-designing us! That would be doom for sure!

So, perhaps we can relax that we are not "perfect." Do you know ANYTHING that IS perfect? I don't.

[genovese]

The subject I chose was intended to see how the IDs would react to my proposition that we are imperfectly made. (How could an Almighty Creator produce anything that in our eyes did not appear to be perfect?).

As for genetic manipulation - that is already well on the road map. If global warming continues at this pace we may have a choice of doing nothing (and becoming extinct), doing something but still becoming extinct, or attempt to change our physiology so as to survive with less water and more heat.

There are plenty of people suffering from genetic mistakes who would love to be "normalized" with the help from some genetic tinkering.

[AstusAleator]

There are plenty of people suffering from genetic mistakes who would love to be "normalized" with the help from some genetic tinkering.

Yes, if only we could genetically transform all those jews, gays, and blacks into good Arians.

[alextemplet]

Yeah, that did sound a bit eugenic to me as well.

Genetics is certainly worthy to study but it becomes dangerous when people try to push it this far, which I think is further than it was ever meant to be pushed. Especially when it's been shown that genetics does not play as big of a role as some people would think.

What about epigenetics? It may (or may not) be possible to pass on "genetics" information that's not contained in the DNA code at all! I think it's very early to start tinkering with anything; we should first make sure we understand what we're tinkering with.

[AstusAleator]

Then again, some of the best discoveries have been made by "tinkering." I guess the issue would be, at what cost?

I'm wondering how much we're already tinkering with our genome without knowing it. What are the hormones released into the environment, or supplemented in our food doing to us? What about all those other crazy chemicals out there? 8O

[greeneye55582]

Well I took quite a few days away from this thread for a break.

I think it's kind of silly to continue a discussion on what perfection is and isn't. Perfection means different things to different people.

As for the genetic tinkering, it's already happened & will continue to happen. Why? Because we're curious. Despite your best efforts at fortune-telling, you can't predict all the possible outcomes of genetic tinkering. Unexpected results & phenotypes may happen.

[alextemplet]

As for the genetic tinkering, it's already happened & will continue to happen. Why? Because we're curious. Despite your best efforts at fortune-telling, you can't predict all the possible outcomes of genetic tinkering. Unexpected results & phenotypes may happen.

I'm not saying that it won't happen; I'm saying that I don't think it should happen. Just because something has already happened and will happen again doesn't mean anything. Murder has already happened and will again, but that doesn't make it right.

[genovese]

My original title was "Imperfect Design" which I thought proved that the Darwin theory of evolution was a model that would produce such a result, whereas the God Creator Model shouldn't have produced any imperfections, unless you are imagining a Man made God.
As for "eugenics" I certainly had no idea of that in mind. I was thinking more of the thousands of medical cripples which are a direct result of Genetic Variations and how their lives could be improved by genetic manipulation. Of course errors will at first occur but what about all the millions of erors that have occured from Nature working alone? We only see the survivors of Natural Selection and therefore tend to see a beautiful world- what about the millions of failures discarded by NATURE? What a lot of people seem to be saying is, "it's OK for Nature to produce rubbish, but Man must not attempt to do a better job in case he has some failures in the process". WHY? If God gave us free will and intelligence - why should we not use it to better our lives? If a mad politician comes along with eugenics in mind - I am sure that other men will be capable of dealing with this threat.

[alextemplet]

Firstly, who ever said that God had to produce perfection?

Secondly, simply saying that other people will deal with the threat of eugenics doesn't make such tinkering okay. The last time we tried a policy "other people will deal with it," World War Two happened. Sure, other men were eventually capable of bringing Hitler's eugenic and racial purity politics to a halt, but it took millions of people six years and countless deaths to stop him. Are you really suggesting that's a safe road to take?

The biggest reason man should not attempt to tinker with his own genetics is because we do not yet understand genetics well enough to guarantee that a disaster doesn't happen.