Imperfect Design

[alextemplet]

[Science? whats wrong with it?

How could he?
i dont think its possible for something that isn't matter or energy to effect us
and god can't be either of those.


what isn't matter or energy?
Gravity?
i think its a property of mass

Science is, by definition, the human attempt to understand our surroundings in naturalistic terms. Just as humans are imperfect, so is science.

God can effect us because He controls both matter and energy.

[kclo4x]

Science is, by definition, the human attempt to understand our surroundings in naturalistic terms. Just as humans are imperfect, so is science.

God can effect us because He controls both matter and energy.

Nothing is perfect, and how can god control matter and energy?

and don't say because he created it, thats so illogical and based on nothing.

[genovese]

alextemplete says "what about believing in God with proof.."
Please let me know what the proof is.
"Talking to God every day" is not proof that he/she exists.
I talked to Father Christmas and Fairies once upon a time, but I do not expect you to take that on board as proof that they really existed. I agree that they did exist in my own mind, but unfortunately other people standing next to me were unable to confirm their presence.

[alextemplet]

Nothing is perfect, and how can god control matter and energy?

and don't say because he created it, thats so illogical and based on nothing.

Why is it so illogical? If I create something, I can choose to create it to be controllable by me, can't I?

[alextemplet]

alextemplete says "what about believing in God with proof.."
Please let me know what the proof is.
"Talking to God every day" is not proof that he/she exists.
I talked to Father Christmas and Fairies once upon a time, but I do not expect you to take that on board as proof that they really existed. I agree that they did exist in my own mind, but unfortunately other people standing next to me were unable to confirm their presence.

Have those fairies and pixies ever been able to accurately predict future events? Or answer prayers? And in my case, the presence of God was confirmed by others around me, even non-believers.

[genovese]

Oh yes, Father Christmas did predict the future. I asked for an electric train set. He assured me that I would get one and my request was answered a week later.
I suppose that should be enough proof of the existence of Father Christmas.
I have also had many prayers that have NOT been answered. I suppose that must be proof that God does not exist.

Seriously though, I do respect peoples views on religious beliefs. It usually has positive benefits for them as individuals and for society as a whole. This is why I think that Natural Selection has encoded this belief into our genome and once something is in our genome it is very hard to remove it. The "Selfish Gene" (Richard Dawkins) will use its carrier which ever way it suits it best.

[alextemplet]

Somehow I have the feeling that I'm not being taken seriously.

[greeneye55582]

The "temporary absence of logic" only applies to accepting Belief in something without actual proof.

I understand what you're saying with this. And actually agree with the idea, despite disagreements with other topics in this forum.

[greeneye55582]

Think about what you're saying for a minute. The universe, which is (probably) finite, was created by God. Common sense would indicate that for God to have created the universe, He must first have existed outside it! So He would not be bound by what we consider to be "natural law."

And who says God has never been detected? I talk to Him every day. Surely that counts as detection?

Alex, I was all with ya buddy (on both this thread & the other one started by genovese)) until you said this.

I think we have to take into consideration both the people who believe in God & those that don't before making statements about the creation of the universe.

[greeneye55582]

What about believing in God with proof to back up the belief?

And what proof do you have? (I'm honestly asking, not being cynical).

[greeneye55582]

Why is it so illogical? If I create something, I can choose to create it to be controllable by me, can't I?

Why does this remind me of puppets? Hmm.. scary.

Starting out in a research lab years ago, I used to clone cells. So in a sense, I created it and chose a feature I wanted it to exhibit. Was it controllable by me? yes & no.

[alextemplet]

Think about what you're saying for a minute. The universe, which is (probably) finite, was created by God. Common sense would indicate that for God to have created the universe, He must first have existed outside it! So He would not be bound by what we consider to be "natural law."

And who says God has never been detected? I talk to Him every day. Surely that counts as detection?

Alex, I was all with ya buddy (on both this thread & the other one started by genovese)) until you said this.

I think we have to take into consideration both the people who believe in God & those that don't before making statements about the creation of the universe.

I was simply trying to explain that it is (at least) possible for God to exist, and the statement that the universe is finite and therefore God is impossible is a logical fallacy. My apologies if I didn't express myself clearly enough.